As to clapping between movements–it was a reverence thing, of course, and no reason to maintain that either. Nobody particularly worries about it, though, either (except maybe after the third movement of the Pathetique Symphony, where, even if the applause is built in, it’s somehow annoying when it happens, particularly if it disturbs the beginning of the last movement. Maybe Tschaikovsky just gets his just desserts for trying to come up with some fancy conceptual trick, though). Since there was a tradition in, say, Mozart’s, Haydn’s, Beethoven’s time for clapping after a particularly rousing movement, I sort of like it when people do that.

It is possible to regard all of these things as ritualistic, elitist oppression of some sort, but mostly they had pretty sensible reasons for coming into being, and, like many conventions, there’s no particular reason to get exercised about them (unless or until they start to take a life of their own more than what they were supposed to be accompaniment or facilitation to). I do, however, get annoyed when my attention is distracted from something I want to listen to, especially in a situation where that’s presumably what we’re all there for. And, actually, walking out on something is pretty insulting, and, once again, distracting; I presume that when it happens that is the message, since after all, you can always take a book and read (as long as you turn the pages quietly).

My advice: just before you press "submit", select all the text of your post and click "copy". If anything screws up the first time, you only have to click "paste" in the text-box, and your post will be there again for the second try (which generally always goes through).

One other caveat: comments with multiple url links will almost always be shunted to the "wait for moderation" queue, so try to have no more than one url link in a comment if at all possible. Any more comments, questions, gripes about the spam blockers, please email me, Jeff or Jerry, rather than fill up this thread.

OK, back to our regularly scheduled programming...]

Also, I don’t think anybody’s saying that sitting still and paying attention is elitist in itself. It’s the telling people that that’s the only legitimate way that’s elitist. But you’re right that many of the things that have been tried either don’t work or can’t replace the current model.

I’m with Rodney; I don’t find anything elitist about the “sit still and pay attention” necessary for so much art music. It is what it is; tampering with that isn’t being true to the ethos of the work itself. And I’m with Jeff in hoping the work and playing itself should have enough quality to command some of that attention. And I’m with Walter when he rails against the truly elitest detrius the art-music concert has accumulated above and beyond the primary respect and attention this music often intends. And I’m with the many that think that either the “be-in” or “bells and whistles” approach can’t be used for the whole shebang.

The trappings of the classical concert over the past 50 years or so have been set up to demand attention on the presumption that the music _deserves_ that attention, and that if you don’t see it that way you it’s because you’re wrong and so you need to be forced to pay attention. Everything comes with an air of presumed “greatness,” and the atmosphere is one worship. And several of the practices we’re talking about are designed to hold you prisoner — changing the channel on your TV set or leaving the rock club during somebody’s set is perfectly normal, but in the classical concert hall “walking out” has been elevated to an insult or a statement of protest.

So for each tradition we need to ask why.

Why does the orchestra perform in tuxedoes? Two reasons, both bad. First, Classical music is presumed to be an upper class affair, so the musicians need to be dressed like waiters. Second, the music is presumed to be great, borderline holy, and so the musicians need to dress up out of respect to the Art.

Why don’t you clap between movements? Because the music is a holy relic, not to be disturbed.

Why don’t we sell advertising space on the stage? Because the music is sacred and commercialism is profane, and never the twain shall meet (except at the box office, of course).

The sucky 20 minute solo euphonium piece that Jeff postulates gets placed into this context because as a piece of “classical music” it is presumed to deserve it.

P.S. Can we get different Spam protection? Every time I write a nice long respose I get accused of being a spammer and lose my work.

Audiences are not expected to be interactive these days. They’re expecting things to be force-fed to them, told what to like, when to clap, laugh, etc. They’re not expecting to think much. And, they’re not expecting to sit still. (Odd aside: I recently had a conversation with someone who told me about some Buddhist monks who mediate for 18 hours at a time.) And the mode of interaction is different: follow along with the music, make connections in your mind to what you’ve heard before. Sure, it’s easier to do in a Beethoven piece than, say, Babbitt, and it’s one of the reasons for the immense popularity of minimalism: you can follow it.

I’m not sure where the blame lies: television, the lack of music education in the schools, the co-modification of music (and the arts) to the lowest common denominator, the fact that we’re a nation of over-worked and burnt out individuals, or something else.

Take for example a truly great jazz performance. Ever heard a live recording of say Miles or Coltraine? There’s often NO audience noise. Billy Holiday live recordings? No audience noise. Sure there’s some intense shouts every now and then, but what there isn’t is people talking in the background. (We get those same effects in superb opera performances often, too)

I don’t mean to suggest that those live recording environments are special – sure – they’re often warned by the producer – ‘We’re making a live recording so STFU… etc…’

My point is that the music itself should produce the audience/cultural norms. These classical/newmusic concerts we’re talking about often produce discomfort in many parts of the audience because they’re experiencing something they don’t often experience in a live concert they’ve paid for – intense boredom.

Our programming, just isn’t leaned towards producing great immersive experiences that produce rapt awe. That’s what produces quiet. Not cultural norms, in a healthy musical environment. Rapt awe.

We program to showcase, to sell, to promote some dude’s music that promoted our music, not to blow audiences away. And then, frankly, and especially in new music concerts we don’t rehearse enough, so not only is the piece badly sequenced/programmed, but the mixed bag plus a mediocre performance plus you have to STFU? So we’ll have one or two interesting piece and then a 20 minute solo euphonium piece that SUCKS!

It’s enough to make someone not want to go to concerts at all, which is one reason I keep saying, the iPod is the venue now. Not the concert hall, but that’s besides the point. If our concerts weren’t so intensely boring most of the time, people would be happily quiet. Not unhappily quiet. They’d want to be quiet so they could feel just how blown away they’ve become.

That’s the goal. Not changing cultural norms. To blow audiences away so severely that they want to be quiet. They want to be quiet – for themselves. That is, until they become so unhinged that they have to shout… ‘WOW!’