Comments on: The Towering Inferno http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/ Sat, 06 Mar 2010 02:27:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Keith Kothman http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1131 Keith Kothman Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:59:08 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1131 I think that there is both a generational and geographical nature to the responses here. Most people who are seriously bemoaning the loss of Tower had physical proximity to it, and a long relationship with it. From a generational standpoint, I'm old enough to remember the thrill of going into the Westwood CA Tower for the first time, and finding out that they had a completely separate store for jazz and classical. Wow. But i was a tourist. Later on, when I lived in Southern CA I would sometimes drop in to one in Orange County along my commuting route. It was still a thrill to find some of the obscure pop things that I would hear on KCRW's Morning Becomes Eclectic, but the tiny room for classical/jazz/opera was already a disappointment. A Tower opened up near campus while I was a grad student at UCSD. And I had that thrill of finding a CD with one of my pieces on it - 4 copies - and going back later to find that three of them were gone (purchases I hoped). But that time and proximity has long passed. I, too, am in the flyover, and until recently without even a brick-and-mortar bookstore of any significance (now, Books a Million is a thrill). Frank Oteri mentions the length of time it took to find an obscure recording online, and to have it shipped. If I had to be in proximity to someplace to get it, I would be waiting much longer than a month! Online retailers and digital downloads have allowed me to stay connected and part of the larger culture. The emergence of social networking is developing ways to supply advice, and allow for much greater input if one chooses. It's harder for older populations to trust things like MySpace, but the younger generation has largely already adapted. I think that there is both a generational and geographical nature to the responses here. Most people who are seriously bemoaning the loss of Tower had physical proximity to it, and a long relationship with it.

From a generational standpoint, I’m old enough to remember the thrill of going into the Westwood CA Tower for the first time, and finding out that they had a completely separate store for jazz and classical. Wow. But i was a tourist. Later on, when I lived in Southern CA I would sometimes drop in to one in Orange County along my commuting route. It was still a thrill to find some of the obscure pop things that I would hear on KCRW’s Morning Becomes Eclectic, but the tiny room for classical/jazz/opera was already a disappointment.

A Tower opened up near campus while I was a grad student at UCSD. And I had that thrill of finding a CD with one of my pieces on it – 4 copies – and going back later to find that three of them were gone (purchases I hoped).

But that time and proximity has long passed. I, too, am in the flyover, and until recently without even a brick-and-mortar bookstore of any significance (now, Books a Million is a thrill). Frank Oteri mentions the length of time it took to find an obscure recording online, and to have it shipped. If I had to be in proximity to someplace to get it, I would be waiting much longer than a month!

Online retailers and digital downloads have allowed me to stay connected and part of the larger culture. The emergence of social networking is developing ways to supply advice, and allow for much greater input if one chooses. It’s harder for older populations to trust things like MySpace, but the younger generation has largely already adapted.

]]> By: Marc Sacks http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1038 Marc Sacks Fri, 01 Dec 2006 03:45:36 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1038 I buy a lot of classical CDs. I also do a lot of downloading. I have never paid for a download, and I've never downloaded anything illegally. I download .mp3s from places like the Internet Archive, Ubuweb, DoveSong, and lots of other free sites, including a number of sites of new music composers. I pay for physical things. I'm also old-fashioned enough to burn my downloads to CDs; I have no interest in putting my whole collection on an iPod. I have occasionally bought CDs from artists after downloading some of their work, but I'd never pay to download a file, whether it's a piece of music or a magazine article (and I buy lots of magazines too). I'm not interested in ripping anyone off; I just don't like to pay for a product I can't hold. And as for iTunes: what's a "song" anyway? 99 cents for a movement of a symphony, or a whole act of Tristan (kind of a hard thing to break into arias, after all)? I buy a lot of classical CDs. I also do a lot of downloading. I have never paid for a download, and I’ve never downloaded anything illegally. I download .mp3s from places like the Internet Archive, Ubuweb, DoveSong, and lots of other free sites, including a number of sites of new music composers. I pay for physical things. I’m also old-fashioned enough to burn my downloads to CDs; I have no interest in putting my whole collection on an iPod.

I have occasionally bought CDs from artists after downloading some of their work, but I’d never pay to download a file, whether it’s a piece of music or a magazine article (and I buy lots of magazines too). I’m not interested in ripping anyone off; I just don’t like to pay for a product I can’t hold.

And as for iTunes: what’s a “song” anyway? 99 cents for a movement of a symphony, or a whole act of Tristan (kind of a hard thing to break into arias, after all)?

]]> By: Mary Jane Leach http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1037 Mary Jane Leach Fri, 01 Dec 2006 03:14:42 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1037 I think pseudonymous has a point. The record business was originally dominated by classical music, and it lost its way when "business" pre-empted the music (less disastrously than the health care system, but I'm struck by the similarity in effect). I used to run a record store, Discount Records (two actually - in Burlington, VT and Boston). Discount Records was a chain founded by Marvin Saines, who conducted orchestras in his spare time. A lot of the managers had "apprenticed" at Sam Goody's, and were classical music specialists - they all loved classical music. Somewhere along the way, things changed, and classical lost its dominance. Discount Records was sold to CBS, who in all honesty were pretty decent people. About 1973-4, things really started to change. The emphasis changed from charging the same for all records, to thinking that selling 300 albums with a 10 cent profit (or less) was better than selling 30 at $1 - loss leaders. Stores like Strawberries and Peaches opened. It was cool to go around a store with shopping carts. Record label salesmen could just have well been selling refridgerators, it was just product to them. The passion was gone, to say nothing of the knowledge, which was beginning to be ridiculed. The chain was sold again in 1976 to a company in Minnesota that was a suburban chain with a horrible mentality and terrible business practices for a store in a city. It was basically the end of Discount Records, which had always been really good. I never could get into Tower - too many bins full of duplicates and confusing classifications. However, if they had stuck to selling records/cds, they might still be in business. I think pseudonymous has a point. The record business was originally dominated by classical music, and it lost its way when “business” pre-empted the music (less disastrously than the health care system, but I’m struck by the similarity in effect). I used to run a record store, Discount Records (two actually – in Burlington, VT and Boston). Discount Records was a chain founded by Marvin Saines, who conducted orchestras in his spare time. A lot of the managers had “apprenticed” at Sam Goody’s, and were classical music specialists – they all loved classical music. Somewhere along the way, things changed, and classical lost its dominance. Discount Records was sold to CBS, who in all honesty were pretty decent people. About 1973-4, things really started to change. The emphasis changed from charging the same for all records, to thinking that selling 300 albums with a 10 cent profit (or less) was better than selling 30 at $1 – loss leaders. Stores like Strawberries and Peaches opened. It was cool to go around a store with shopping carts. Record label salesmen could just have well been selling refridgerators, it was just product to them. The passion was gone, to say nothing of the knowledge, which was beginning to be ridiculed. The chain was sold again in 1976 to a company in Minnesota that was a suburban chain with a horrible mentality and terrible business practices for a store in a city. It was basically the end of Discount Records, which had always been really good. I never could get into Tower – too many bins full of duplicates and confusing classifications. However, if they had stuck to selling records/cds, they might still be in business.

]]> By: pseudonymous in nc http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1014 pseudonymous in nc Thu, 30 Nov 2006 06:10:33 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1014 As I said chez Yglesias, classical labels (and artists) are perhaps in a better position to adapt to the decline of bricks-and-mortar music sales, precisely because their business model isn't built around selling large volumes in relation to heavy marketing. This doesn't necessarily mean downloads will completely take the place of CD sales: subscription models such as John Eliot Gardiner's Bach Cantata cycle also show a willingness to experiment. Obviously, there's an issue of audio quality, but broadband permits lossless downloads these days, and the Philadelphia Orchestra and Magnatune are running with FLAC -- no DRM -- and free MP3 previews. Classical works haven't suffered as badly from the curse of deletion -- enough vinyl releases have found their way to CD -- but digital distribution also opens the possibility of bringing recordings out of the archives. So, classical artists and labels really aren't in the same business as the majors who need to shift tens of thousands of CDs. It's those majors, I think, who suffer most from the shift away from bricks-and-mortar. As I said chez Yglesias, classical labels (and artists) are perhaps in a better position to adapt to the decline of bricks-and-mortar music sales, precisely because their business model isn’t built around selling large volumes in relation to heavy marketing. This doesn’t necessarily mean downloads will completely take the place of CD sales: subscription models such as John Eliot Gardiner’s Bach Cantata cycle also show a willingness to experiment. Obviously, there’s an issue of audio quality, but broadband permits lossless downloads these days, and the Philadelphia Orchestra and Magnatune are running with FLAC — no DRM — and free MP3 previews. Classical works haven’t suffered as badly from the curse of deletion — enough vinyl releases have found their way to CD — but digital distribution also opens the possibility of bringing recordings out of the archives.

So, classical artists and labels really aren’t in the same business as the majors who need to shift tens of thousands of CDs. It’s those majors, I think, who suffer most from the shift away from bricks-and-mortar.

]]> By: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1008 Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:31:04 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1008 Stanton digital turntables play 78s. You need a 78 stylus; they're available from http://www.needledoctor.com/ Dennis Stanton digital turntables play 78s.

You need a 78 stylus; they’re available from http://www.needledoctor.com/

Dennis

]]> By: Chris Becker http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1007 Chris Becker Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:27:56 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1007 David - Think about it - what sound recording medium is still around after all these years? Vinyl! I'm gonna research this a bit over the holidays...I should get some facts before I go any further... You might be able to find a record player that plays 78s in your neighborhood Salvation Army. I actually found one in an antique store in Houston not too long ago - it was just a portable record player that also had a radio built into it! Very cool. I think you're right (but I really don't know for sure) - I think you would have to buy an old piece of gear to play 78 rpms... David – Think about it – what sound recording medium is still around after all these years? Vinyl! I’m gonna research this a bit over the holidays…I should get some facts before I go any further…

You might be able to find a record player that plays 78s in your neighborhood Salvation Army. I actually found one in an antique store in Houston not too long ago – it was just a portable record player that also had a radio built into it! Very cool.

I think you’re right (but I really don’t know for sure) – I think you would have to buy an old piece of gear to play 78 rpms…

]]> By: david toub http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1005 david toub Thu, 30 Nov 2006 02:18:05 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1005 Chris, don't worry---no intention of ditching my 78's, even if no phonograph today can play it that I'm aware of. The old 78s are incredible, BTW, even if impractical. Digital to vinyl??? I'm not so sure of that... Chris, don’t worry—no intention of ditching my 78’s, even if no phonograph today can play it that I’m aware of. The old 78s are incredible, BTW, even if impractical.

Digital to vinyl??? I’m not so sure of that…

]]> By: Dennis Bathory-Kitsz http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1004 Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Thu, 30 Nov 2006 01:30:08 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1004 Well, gosh, Prof. McJ had his say via his own blog. Here's my Tower commentary from October 16: http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/waam-20061016.html Dennis Well, gosh, Prof. McJ had his say via his own blog. Here’s my Tower commentary from October 16:
http://maltedmedia.com/people/bathory/waam-20061016.html

Dennis

]]> By: Chris Becker http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-1003 Chris Becker Thu, 30 Nov 2006 00:55:26 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-1003 David! Don't get rid of your 78s!!! Think about it, what form of sound record is still with us after several decades? 78s, vinyl records...data on CD-Rs vanish. Taple disintegrates. CDs you bought at Tower will probably lose all of their digital data in 100 years...but 78s, records... Maybe you should instead think about transfering all of your digitally recorded material to vinyl? I think that might be a nice project for me when I'm (God willing) in my 80's, 90's... David! Don’t get rid of your 78s!!! Think about it, what form of sound record is still with us after several decades? 78s, vinyl records…data on CD-Rs vanish. Taple disintegrates. CDs you bought at Tower will probably lose all of their digital data in 100 years…but 78s, records…

Maybe you should instead think about transfering all of your digitally recorded material to vinyl? I think that might be a nice project for me when I’m (God willing) in my 80’s, 90’s…

]]> By: Jeffrey Quick http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/2006/11/the-towering-inferno/comment-page-1/#comment-999 Jeffrey Quick Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:31:47 +0000 http://www.sequenza21.com/forum/?p=16#comment-999 Retail bricks-n-mortar classical is dead. Everyone who ever did it halfway well has gone to hell. When Best Buy first came to Cleveland, it was halfway decent, but with the amount of noise in a typical BB, they weren't going to attract classical shoppers. Borders was once fine, but they're starting to look like "all crossover all the time" too. But I remember Liberty Music Shop and Schoolkids and Discount Records in Ann Arbor in the '70s, along with used shops almost as good. And the place in the Arcade in Cleveland in the late 80s. All great...but never enough. And the Net IS enough. Being in the Flyover, we had no Tower. Christmas of 1996, I went to NYC to help get over a bad divorce, and Jeff Harrington took me to a Tower where I saw a divider card for my old classmate Karolina Eiriksdotter. Not just a CD, but an effing DIVIDER CARD. That, to me, symbolized the Tower experience...too much of everything, right there in front of you. And the Net experience is better in some ways, but it lacks that element of surprise. You KNOW that Amazon will pretty much have it all...like your wife. A new retail store is like a date; maybe you won't go there again, but maybe you'll go all the way. Retail bricks-n-mortar classical is dead.
Everyone who ever did it halfway well has gone to hell. When Best Buy first came to Cleveland, it was halfway decent, but with the amount of noise in a typical BB, they weren’t going to attract classical shoppers. Borders was once fine, but they’re starting to look like “all crossover all the time” too. But I remember Liberty Music Shop and Schoolkids and Discount Records in Ann Arbor in the ’70s, along with used shops almost as good. And the place in the Arcade in Cleveland in the late 80s. All great…but never enough. And the Net IS enough.

Being in the Flyover, we had no Tower. Christmas of 1996, I went to NYC to help get over a bad divorce, and Jeff Harrington took me to a Tower where I saw a divider card for my old classmate Karolina Eiriksdotter. Not just a CD, but an effing DIVIDER CARD. That, to me, symbolized the Tower experience…too much of everything, right there in front of you. And the Net experience is better in some ways, but it lacks that element of surprise. You KNOW that Amazon will pretty much have it all…like your wife. A new retail store is like a date; maybe you won’t go there again, but maybe you’ll go all the way.

]]>